Oxford Nanopore to introduce "disruptive technology" at AGBT - Page 5

Elcannibal · 08-04-2012, 07:42 PM

Pure hype is not science. Sequencing, I might argue with you, be it on a USB stick or through a 800K behemoth is nowhere near science. All the best to ONT, it's just not a business model that holds.

cibertech · 08-05-2012, 03:37 AM

Hello Elcannibal.

I do believe that sequencing is a part science, and it’s already helping people to perform deep studies on cancer, for example. I also believe it will have a bigger impact in the future. Nevertheless, as I stated before, it’s just a part of science. It’s not going to do everything like a magic trick, the same way that a computer, by itself, doesn’t do much. The person behind it has to use it for a good purpose, and the computer is just part of the process of, lets say, creating a mechanical part, for example. Of course, we live in a capitalist world, and everything must be done to be profitable, so companies cannot stick on just doing what is best for science. They must please the share holders as well. So, a compromise between the two must always be achieved. But saying that sequencing is not part of science is the same thing as saying that a computer is not part of mechanical engineering, just because the computer cannot, by itself, create the mechanical part (although that might not be true anymore, with 3D printers...).

Best regards

Ezequiel

ymc · 08-05-2012, 05:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cibertech

Hello Elcannibal.

I do believe that sequencing is a part science, and it’s already helping people to perform deep studies on cancer, for example. I also believe it will have a bigger impact in the future. Nevertheless, as I stated before, it’s just a part of science. It’s not going to do everything like a magic trick, the same way that a computer, by itself, doesn’t do much. The person behind it has to use it for a good purpose, and the computer is just part of the process of, lets say, creating a mechanical part, for example. Of course, we live in a capitalist world, and everything must be done to be profitable, so companies cannot stick on just doing what is best for science. They must please the share holders as well. So, a compromise between the two must always be achieved. But saying that sequencing is not part of science is the same thing as saying that a computer is not part of mechanical engineering, just because the computer cannot, by itself, create the mechanical part (although that might not be true anymore, with 3D printers...).

Best regards

Ezequiel

Well said. I think Elcannibal probably thinks computer-related or sequencing-related stuff is engineering not science.

Science is by definition something theoretical and not useful. But you need science to drive engineering. Science also needs engineering to drive it nowadays as some of its problems are intractable without the help of machines.

pmiguel · 08-05-2012, 07:33 AM

Also, there is some bitterness as a subtext. Some complaint.

Maybe a (fairly high-functioning) troll, just trying to punch the right buttons?

What is the complaint? Companies are not doing real science, all they care about is profits? But also, a criticism about how their business model is defective or non-existent. The two halves of the complaint would not seem compatible. Either you paint a company as a money-grubbing entity with no true interest in the product they are selling or it is some pie-in-the-sky start-up incapable of making a dollar for its investors.

If you are invoking both at the same time -- yeah, that would make it a troll.

I guess I am not a fan of the bitter-angsty troll. But that doesn't mean they have no purpose on a forum like this one.

The thing is, as I ranted earlier, ONT really played "us" like a fiddle during AGBT. Gave us zero raw data, but got us to add to their hype-stream. I could say "bad on them" for that. But, they have their agenda. Really I think it is was "bad on us" for not calling them on it right at AGBT. Yeah, I wasn't there. I can't say I would have reacted any differently. But, since it worked, that is an encouragement to other groups who might want to do the same thing.

--
Phillip

Elcannibal · 08-05-2012, 05:01 PM

I'm not bitter, I condone hype. There has been too much of it lately, scientists have been jumping on ridiculous marketing, aligning themselves with companies and technologies, rather than disease. The holy grail is not coming, it's just that simple.

cibertech · 08-06-2012, 06:21 AM

Hello Elcannibal.

I totally agree with you on this point. (Remember when the first "human genome in 15 minutes" was first promised and how many times? I cannot even remember any more...)
However, this fact alone does not make sequencing invaluable and certainly does not mean sequencing is not part of science. As I stated before, we live in a capitalist world, and this is just a reflection of it.

Ezequiel

GW_OK · 08-07-2012, 01:49 PM

Hey everybody, the first bit of ON news in a long while:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Genome Web's In Sequence

[The New York Genome Center] also intends to place other new technologies at the pilot lab. "We are talking to Oxford Nanopore, for example, about becoming an early-access center for their technology," Kelley said.

source

I guess second hand news is better than nothing, if anything it lets us know that ON is not completely dead....

ymc · 08-07-2012, 07:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GW_OK

Hey everybody, the first bit of ON news in a long while:

source

I guess second hand news is better than nothing, if anything it lets us know that ON is not completely dead....

NYGC is calling ONT bluff?

zaratieg · 08-08-2012, 04:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GW_OK

Hey everybody, the first bit of ON news in a long while:

source

I guess second hand news is better than nothing, if anything it lets us know that ON is not completely dead....

I guess it means they still exist. But in terms of ETA, I read this as "we are so far from release date that we are not even actively looking for beta testers, and NYGC, which is only slightly less pie-in-the-sky than us, is the one that is asking to try our toys"

bbeitzel · 08-08-2012, 06:22 AM

I saw a while back that ONT is hiring FASs (http://www.nanoporetech.com/careers/job-centre/view/144). I took that as a sign that they were getting close to commercial launch, but maybe I am just naive / overly optimistic.

scbaker · 08-08-2012, 08:43 AM

I think it's pretty clear that ONT is moving towards commercialization, but it's a question of 'when'. My guess is that their technology won't be broadly available until mid 2013 (but that's just a guess).

cibertech · 08-08-2012, 09:08 AM

That's interesting, Shawn.
How have you estimated that date? Based on something specific?

Ezequiel

scbaker · 08-09-2012, 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cibertech

That's interesting, Shawn.
How have you estimated that date? Based on something specific?

Ezequiel

No, no - certainly nothing specific. It's just that we're in the middle of August and I still haven't really heard any rumors of who the early access customers are (although there are a few obvious guesses). Full commercialization will simply take a while and I haven't seen enough signs of ramping up (hiring activity, sightings in the field, etc) to think it will happen by the end of the year. I would be super happy to be wrong, with GridIONs and MinIONs for everyone this Christmas (I just wouldn't bet on it).

Shawn

GW_OK · 08-13-2012, 07:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by twitter

Announcing Oxford Nanopore as the poster prize sponsor for #BTG2012! @nanopore

I wonder if the prize is a MinION?

BBoy · 08-16-2012, 02:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GW_OK

I wonder if the prize is a MinION?

They really really really ought to re brand the damn thing. Minion? Really? But I agree that the silence since AGBT has been interesting, as has been the lack of significant hiring activity. Perhaps their instrument is so reliable they need no field service? Or maybe their beta sites are all near headquarter? Both are unlikely.

pmiguel · 08-16-2012, 05:41 AM

Well the Minion is disposable, so service would not be an issue. The "instrument" per se would be just whatever computer you plugged it into for the run. At least that is what I understand.

I agree the "ION" suffix is just going to be detrimental to any attempt to distinguish themselves from the other sequencers already inhabiting that name space.

That said, ONT seems to have captured a much larger percentage of the "general public" mind-share than Ion Torrent. Reminds me of the situation circa 3 years ago when it was more likely that a member of the public would have heard of "Pacific Biosciences" than "Illumina". Despite the fact the former was pure vaporware at the point whereas Illumina actually had a sequencer to sell. (Or had Solexa been purchased by Illumina at that point?)

--
Phillip

Jeremy · 08-16-2012, 11:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BBoy

They really really really ought to re brand the damn thing. Minion? Really? But I agree that the silence since AGBT has been interesting, as has been the lack of significant hiring activity. Perhaps their instrument is so reliable they need no field service? Or maybe their beta sites are all near headquarter? Both are unlikely.

I have been watching their website and for the last few months they have had a lot of job vacancies listed. Some of the more promising are 'field application scientists', 'electronics production engineer' and 'production/manufacturing engineer'. If they need someone to oversee production/manufacturing then surely they are getting close to release(?).

That aside though, the total lack of any news suggests things aren't on track.

Elcannibal · 09-01-2012, 12:59 PM

It's a fairly common HR concept to post as many job position as possible. I know company who are constantly sending out employees for a walk of shame with the brown box, the 15 minute clean up and the security guard while posting request on websites for the exact same job... same thing for hiring freezes, a very common practice amongst NGS companies but they would never want you to know.

aeonsim · 10-30-2012, 03:37 PM

I see they've got a booth at ASHG, hopefully some of you who are attending will give them some stick about the commercial release of minion and the lack of released data!

GW_OK · 11-02-2012, 07:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by twitter

Oxford Nanopore ‏@nanopore

Visit us at ASHG 2012, where we’ll have the latest GridION and MinION systems on display - Booth 418/420!

Say whaaat?
What's the over-under that they're hollow boxes?

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08-04-2012, 07:42 PM	#81
Elcannibal Member Location: Alaska Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 49	Pure hype is not science. Sequencing, I might argue with you, be it on a USB stick or through a 800K behemoth is nowhere near science. All the best to ONT, it's just not a business model that holds.

08-05-2012, 03:37 AM	#82
cibertech Member Location: San Diego Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 25	Hello Elcannibal. I do believe that sequencing is a part science, and it’s already helping people to perform deep studies on cancer, for example. I also believe it will have a bigger impact in the future. Nevertheless, as I stated before, it’s just a part of science. It’s not going to do everything like a magic trick, the same way that a computer, by itself, doesn’t do much. The person behind it has to use it for a good purpose, and the computer is just part of the process of, lets say, creating a mechanical part, for example. Of course, we live in a capitalist world, and everything must be done to be profitable, so companies cannot stick on just doing what is best for science. They must please the share holders as well. So, a compromise between the two must always be achieved. But saying that sequencing is not part of science is the same thing as saying that a computer is not part of mechanical engineering, just because the computer cannot, by itself, create the mechanical part (although that might not be true anymore, with 3D printers...). Best regards Ezequiel

08-05-2012, 07:33 AM	#84
pmiguel Senior Member Location: Purdue University, West Lafayette, Indiana Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 2,317	Also, there is some bitterness as a subtext. Some complaint. Maybe a (fairly high-functioning) troll, just trying to punch the right buttons? What is the complaint? Companies are not doing real science, all they care about is profits? But also, a criticism about how their business model is defective or non-existent. The two halves of the complaint would not seem compatible. Either you paint a company as a money-grubbing entity with no true interest in the product they are selling or it is some pie-in-the-sky start-up incapable of making a dollar for its investors. If you are invoking both at the same time -- yeah, that would make it a troll. I guess I am not a fan of the bitter-angsty troll. But that doesn't mean they have no purpose on a forum like this one. The thing is, as I ranted earlier, ONT really played "us" like a fiddle during AGBT. Gave us zero raw data, but got us to add to their hype-stream. I could say "bad on them" for that. But, they have their agenda. Really I think it is was "bad on us" for not calling them on it right at AGBT. Yeah, I wasn't there. I can't say I would have reacted any differently. But, since it worked, that is an encouragement to other groups who might want to do the same thing. -- Phillip

08-05-2012, 05:01 PM	#85
Elcannibal Member Location: Alaska Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 49	I'm not bitter, I condone hype. There has been too much of it lately, scientists have been jumping on ridiculous marketing, aligning themselves with companies and technologies, rather than disease. The holy grail is not coming, it's just that simple.

08-06-2012, 06:21 AM	#86
cibertech Member Location: San Diego Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 25	Hello Elcannibal. I totally agree with you on this point. (Remember when the first "human genome in 15 minutes" was first promised and how many times? I cannot even remember any more...) However, this fact alone does not make sequencing invaluable and certainly does not mean sequencing is not part of science. As I stated before, we live in a capitalist world, and this is just a reflection of it. Ezequiel

08-08-2012, 06:22 AM	#90
bbeitzel Member Location: Ft. Detrick, MD Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 50	I saw a while back that ONT is hiring FASs (http://www.nanoporetech.com/careers/job-centre/view/144). I took that as a sign that they were getting close to commercial launch, but maybe I am just naive / overly optimistic.

08-08-2012, 08:43 AM	#91
scbaker Shawn Baker Location: San Diego Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 84	I think it's pretty clear that ONT is moving towards commercialization, but it's a question of 'when'. My guess is that their technology won't be broadly available until mid 2013 (but that's just a guess).

08-08-2012, 09:08 AM	#92
cibertech Member Location: San Diego Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 25	That's interesting, Shawn. How have you estimated that date? Based on something specific? Ezequiel

08-16-2012, 05:41 AM	#96
pmiguel Senior Member Location: Purdue University, West Lafayette, Indiana Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 2,317	Well the Minion is disposable, so service would not be an issue. The "instrument" per se would be just whatever computer you plugged it into for the run. At least that is what I understand. I agree the "ION" suffix is just going to be detrimental to any attempt to distinguish themselves from the other sequencers already inhabiting that name space. That said, ONT seems to have captured a much larger percentage of the "general public" mind-share than Ion Torrent. Reminds me of the situation circa 3 years ago when it was more likely that a member of the public would have heard of "Pacific Biosciences" than "Illumina". Despite the fact the former was pure vaporware at the point whereas Illumina actually had a sequencer to sell. (Or had Solexa been purchased by Illumina at that point?) -- Phillip

09-01-2012, 12:59 PM	#98
Elcannibal Member Location: Alaska Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 49	It's a fairly common HR concept to post as many job position as possible. I know company who are constantly sending out employees for a walk of shame with the brown box, the 15 minute clean up and the security guard while posting request on websites for the exact same job... same thing for hiring freezes, a very common practice amongst NGS companies but they would never want you to know.

10-30-2012, 03:37 PM	#99
aeonsim Member Location: Belgium Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 45	I see they've got a booth at ASHG, hopefully some of you who are attending will give them some stick about the commercial release of minion and the lack of released data!