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View Poll Results: Is illumina acting Fairly?
Yes 18 60.00%
NO 9 30.00%
Not Sure 3 10.00%
Voters: 30. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 07-09-2014, 03:24 PM   #1
dannyhi321
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Unhappy Illumina extortionate system transfer charges

I purchased an Illumina system by an agreement with the university of ADELIDE - I.E. i provide all the funds for the purchase. ADELIDE agree the system is mine but ILlUMINA REFUSE TO TRANSFER REGISTERED OWNERSHIP to myself and molecular research limited, The two miseqs cost arrox $250k Aus $ and they have quoted $111K AUS to move the systems to the OK and this is WITHOUT SHIPPING CHARGES! - when both systems together cost 250$ AUS in the first place, see communication as follows:- (please note funds to purchase the sytem came from Dan).
Hi Mike and Dan,



Thank you all for the communication, the MiSeqs are both legally held in the name of Mike Wilkinson and the University of Adelaide from our end, including all service contracts and additional ownership and rights, and we cannot change this to another name or institution without the required paperwork. Also please be aware that there may be additional things to consider and paperwork and charges associated with the transfer of service contract from Illumina Australia to Illumina UK.



Based on the emails that I have received, we currently understand the situation as follows:

- The 2 miseq instruments will be transferred physically to the UK – to an institutional address to be confirmed by Dan

- The ownership and all related service contracts and dealing with Illumina for these 2 MiSEQs will be transferred to Dan/Mobious from the University of Adelaide.

- Illumina staff will need to come onsite to the University of Adelaide to crate the MiSEQs for removal (3rd party contractors from our freight service will also need to come onsite once crated, for removal). Instruments will be shipped and validated on install by Illumina staff in the UK. All dates at this stage are still to be confirmed and can be arranged with all parties.



For this to happen, we will need, from Mike Wilkinson, a signed letter on the University of Adelaide letterhead to authorize this transfer as outlined above. We will also need confirmation from Dan to pay the costs associated with the move as outlined below. Please let me know if you have any concerns or questions with anything stated here.



I have had estimates calculated for the costs (in AUD) associated with the transfer and move to be paid to Illumina, a breakdown of these costs is as follows



- MiSeq Silver Service Contract per system - $15000/- (To be bought in UK by Dan)

- Reinstall / Recertification/Validation ( Including FSE & FAS and Consumables ) - $43500/- per system ( Consumables roughly around 10 K can be avoided if no validation is required by FAS)

- Shipping charges from Adelaide to Europe – Waiting on freight forwarder LFS to confirm

- Deinstall / Crating Charges for 2 MiSeqs – 9000/-



Total excluding shipping for 2 MiSeqs – $111,000/-



Please advise whether you will require me to pursue this in detail and arrange dates for removal etc with our Customer support staff and the relevant parties. Please let me know if you have any questions or concerns and I will try to help throughout this process as best as possible.



Sincerely,

<ILMN FAS info redacted>

Last edited by ECO; 08-27-2014 at 09:37 AM. Reason: by request <ILMN FAS info redacted>
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Old 07-10-2014, 06:22 AM   #2
dannyhi321
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If your going to vote yes as fair - a reason would be good!

Last edited by ECO; 08-27-2014 at 09:37 AM. Reason: <ILMN FAS info redacted>
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Old 07-10-2014, 08:13 AM   #3
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There's nothing shown in the email you posted preventing you from shipping the miseqs from Adelaide to the UK yourself and buying the reagents and running it yourself.

You want Illumina to go to Adelaide, prepare the machines for shipping, ship them, reinstall them in the UK (fixing anything that breaks or comes out of alignment in transit), guarantee their functionality and then agree to come fix it again if anything happens within a year, for free?

I don't believe Illumina is under any obligation to move machines around or transfer service contract obligation between parties just because one party sold it to another.

So I voted fair.

We looked into buying a Hiseq from an out-of-state University once, but our Illumina rep told us it'd be cheaper to buy new once we got hit with all of the fees from Illumina to do exactly what's described here. So we bought a new one.
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Old 07-10-2014, 04:57 PM   #4
dannyhi321
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Hi GW_OK

If you don't buy the machine "directly" they won't give you an account. If you don't have an account they refuse to supply reagents!

I have no problem paying a reasonable amount for servicing/alignment, however I consider an amount that equates to an excess of the cost of an entire new machine to be rather extravagant.

Just to be clear - I paid for the purchase of the systems in the first place.
And yes I can handle shipping myself.

From your example it seems Illumina purposefully make it prohibitively expensive to buy/sell a system other then via them which is unfair. If Illumina had not applied these extravagant fees upon you, you could have carried out more sequencing on one of their systems within your budget rather than purchasing an entire new system.
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Old 07-12-2014, 03:38 AM   #5
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Anyone else with experience of this?
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Old 07-12-2014, 11:23 PM   #6
gringer
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This is not surprising to me -- It's fairly common in today's society that the apparent cost of fixing things is similar (or greater) than the purchase of something new. I would expect that a disassembly and reassembly would require at least as much labour as a complete repair / overhaul. The assembly and disassembly is far away from the place of manufacture (so spare parts aren't going to be just lying around), and any "snap fit, then glue, seal, and attach plumbing" connections will need to be dealt with very carefully.
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Old 07-13-2014, 12:01 AM   #7
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I agree that the price is a bit steep, but what you're asking them to do is basically a custom logistics project halfway around the world. There's hundreds of man hours needed to plan, coordinate, and execute the project.
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Old 07-13-2014, 02:36 AM   #8
dannyhi321
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Don't be absurb, the logistics is done by the logistics company. The units are already shipped all round the world. Tech companies handle this all the time.

This was handled fine with the larger units - have you actually seen a Miseq? It's bench top!

Hundreds of man hours ! - glad your not doing my genome sequencing.

Last edited by dannyhi321; 07-13-2014 at 02:42 AM.
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Old 07-13-2014, 09:50 PM   #9
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There's no need for hostility in this forum. If you have an issue regarding your situation please take it up with Illumina and not on this forum.
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Old 07-14-2014, 06:19 AM   #10
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No one is being hostile - unless you count dictating whether or not someone can discuss a relevant vendor related issue on a forum designed for such discussion– an issue that at least one other user has experienced. Fair practice is an important issue, one that affects all of us.
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Old 07-15-2014, 08:26 AM   #11
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The only charge I would consider unreasonable is the Reinstall / Recertification/Validation cost of $43500 per instrument.

Are you sure that isn't a maximum? Often companies will quote above the actual cost and adjust the invoice. Lots of things can go wrong during shipping, and from their point of view, it is better to overestimate than to underestimate.

FWIW.

P.S. why did you decide to purchase from Australia when you are located in the UK?
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Old 07-15-2014, 03:56 PM   #12
dannyhi321
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Hi,
Thanks for feedback.

No its the actual price excluding shipping.

Because we have several locations.
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Old 07-17-2014, 04:13 PM   #13
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I'd try negotiating with Illumina to lower the prices, for a start. I'm sure they're not set in stone.

The reagent cost seems quite high for the verification ($10K). To be honest, I can't remember what we ran for our verification, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't that many runs.

Installation is up to Illumina - they can set the price at whatever they like I guess. Most companies charge a few hundred dollars per hour for service visits.

You don't have to take out a service contract if you don't want one. It's a gamble - often it's cheaper to call them out and repair things as they go wrong. That being said, in the few years we've had our MiSeq they have volunteered to replace the fluidics valve three times without us requesting it. Other than that, we haven't needed many repairs or call-outs. The reinstall cost does seem quite high. You certainly don't pay that much when you buy a new machine for installation and verification.

As an aside, I'm not sure what MiSeqs cost in the UK, but the price you paid Adelaide for two second hand instruments seems quite high, too.

Scott.
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Old 07-22-2014, 01:23 PM   #14
dannyhi321
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Hi Scott,

Thanks for the reply. The information is very helpful thanks.

I paid for the systems in the first place. I was hoping moving them would be straight forward since Illumina is an international business like biotech as a whole.

Dan
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Old 07-23-2014, 04:13 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by austinso View Post
P.S. why did you decide to purchase from Australia when you are located in the UK?
I am curious about this too.
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Old 07-23-2014, 08:10 AM   #16
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07-16-2014 12:56 AM
dannyhi321 Hi,
Thanks for feedback.

No its the actual price excluding shipping.

Because we have several locations.
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Old 07-24-2014, 01:38 PM   #17
dannyhi321
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They are now refusing to validate my account unless the systems " remain in Australia".

Nice!
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Old 07-24-2014, 01:43 PM   #18
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Why didn't you jut buy the machines directly from them instead of via the university ?
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Old 07-24-2014, 02:04 PM   #19
dannyhi321
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Because it was a collaboration and I wasn't expecting Illumina to act in such a draconian manner.
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Old 07-26-2014, 08:13 AM   #20
austinso
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well...an unfortunate turn of events...Illumina has always had you by the balls, so very public gripes before everything is settled probably wasn't the best idea, though I can appreciate your frustration...

Illumina may be an international business, but I'm sure if you bought a car in Adelaide, and had it shipped to the UK, you would have found that the cost would be greater than the cost of the car you purchased. Economically, it makes no sense. They ship thousands of Miseqs to global warehouses to distribute shipping costs. They don't ship each instrument from the US.

Are you sure the reinstall doesn't include an instrument upgrade? That is the only way that number makes sense.
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