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View Poll Results: Is illumina acting Fairly?
Yes 18 60.00%
NO 9 30.00%
Not Sure 3 10.00%
Voters: 30. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 07-26-2014, 09:43 AM   #21
dannyhi321
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No systems are full spec.
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Old 07-30-2014, 12:18 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by austinso View Post
well...an unfortunate turn of events...Illumina has always had you by the balls, so very public gripes before everything is settled probably wasn't the best idea, though I can appreciate your frustration...

Illumina may be an international business, but I'm sure if you bought a car in Adelaide, and had it shipped to the UK, you would have found that the cost would be greater than the cost of the car you purchased. Economically, it makes no sense. They ship thousands of Miseqs to global warehouses to distribute shipping costs. They don't ship each instrument from the US.

Are you sure the reinstall doesn't include an instrument upgrade? That is the only way that number makes sense.
I think it would be remiss of me if I did not point out the obvious flaws in your argument. The car analogy is a good one, especially as shipping is not included in this instance and many people have cars imported without the cost of the car becoming prohibitively expensive. In this case we are talking about an instrument weighing 91KG fully packaged/crated.

In the case of your analogy, and lets say for arguments sake I purchased the instrument form the University second hand, the University and I have a right to such a private sale. So lets say I decide to buy your car in Australia and have it shipped to the UK (the shipping costs being borne by myself). Now lets suppose the manufacturer of the car, says to me that if I wish to have the car prepared be moved (say tightening a few movable items) and to have warranty/service contracts upon arrival in the UK the cost WOULD BE GREATER THAN AN ENTIRE NEW CAR, I trust you would agree that would be unfair.

Such a practice would also have the affect (intended or otherwise) of actively discouraging the sale of items from one person to another that are legitimately owned by them. Add to the picture the fact that this particular car uses a fuel supplied only from its manufacturer then you arrive at a particularly illogical, and dare I say, short slighted, arrangement.
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Old 08-21-2014, 12:43 AM   #23
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Illumina may be an international business but they are a business before they are international.
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Old 08-21-2014, 01:37 AM   #24
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Why do u need to involve Illumina at all? You can ship the machine and install the machine by yourself. Then you can order reagents thru your friends who own a MiSeq. Problem solved.
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Old 08-21-2014, 04:07 AM   #25
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Being a business does not preclude you from being fair and reasonable. It is a moral imperative in all aspects of our lives.

One which Illumina is seeking to address which is heartening .

If we ignore a situation – we cannot expect it to change.
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Old 08-21-2014, 06:46 AM   #26
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Why do u need to involve Illumina at all? You can ship the machine and install the machine by yourself. Then you can order reagents thru your friends who own a MiSeq. Problem solved.
There are lock down screws for the stage and optical platform that need to be put in place before moving the instrument to avoid damage to the these parts. Do you know where they are or how tight they need to be? These are very delicate instruments that can't be thrown in the trunk of your car and driven to their new home. Even with proper preparation of the instrument, moving will very likely cause the the optics to go slightly out of alignment. When we moved our MiSeq from one lab to another we had the engineer lock it down then unlock and realign the optics.
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Old 08-25-2014, 08:26 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by dannyhi321 View Post
Being a business does not preclude you from being fair and reasonable. It is a moral imperative in all aspects of our lives.

One which Illumina is seeking to address which is heartening .

If we ignore a situation – we cannot expect it to change.
Well, Illumina is in a still evolving industry. It is possible that they can be a goner when a new tech comes around (e.g. nanopore). So it makes sense for them to milk as much money as possible. If they don't and go under, I presume none of us will donate any money to help them. They are not like Google who is so well established now they can afford to be "not evil".

Therefore, to convince them to change their behavior, you need to show them the money. Obviously, there are very few users like you who bought used machines, so you guys have very little bargaining power. As a result, they have an unfriendly used machine policy.

Since such policy has been around for a long time, so I doubt you can change it easily. So your best bet is either follow it or jump ship.

Why don't you buy refurbished MiSeqs from Illumina? I think that can be cheaper than buying them used + the extraorbitant fee Illumina charges and still at a big discount from the list price.
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Old 08-26-2014, 09:50 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dannyhi321 View Post
Being a business does not preclude you from being fair and reasonable. It is a moral imperative in all aspects of our lives.
Ugh. Please refrain from droll hyperbole..."fair and reasonable" applies to the customer as well.

Did you even get a quote for shipping and crating costs from a third party to actually gain a metric for what is "fair and reasonable"?
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Old 08-26-2014, 04:47 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by austinso View Post
Ugh. Please refrain from droll hyperbole..."fair and reasonable" applies to the customer as well.

Did you even get a quote for shipping and crating costs from a third party to actually gain a metric for what is "fair and reasonable"?
Please refrain from being personal and the sytems where purchased new. and yes to your question btw.
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Old 08-27-2014, 08:24 AM   #30
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Discussion ok, argument and personal attacks not ok.
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Old 02-12-2016, 07:05 AM   #31
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Smile Illumina extortionate system transfer charges

Just heard Illumina are about to "recognise" the units in the UK - nearly there!
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Old 02-12-2016, 12:18 PM   #32
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FWIW

Illumina instituted a policy this year where they will now officially recognize third-party purchased equipment and allow it to be put on a service contract with the following caveats:

1. a re-licensing fee of 10% of MSRP
2. user can use any shipper, but is responsible for any damage incurred.
3. user is responsible for all repairs, if necessary.
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Old 02-13-2016, 01:39 AM   #33
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If you had been paying attention you would know that the whole point is that I purchased the systems myself - which Illumina legally acknowledge.

That's not to say I would like to see third party purchaser taken advantaged of :- where did you get the details of this "policy"?
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Old 02-13-2016, 10:08 AM   #34
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Post wasn't in reply to you. And I wasn't questioning the legality of your purchase. But it did remind me to post what I learned recently from our reps in the Bay area.

And for clarifications sake, what I'm referring to as "third party" (probably should have said "re-seller") are purchases that are not made directly from Illumina, which I believe was the case for you.

Now they have a formal policy. So that removes any confusion and uncertainty from any of these kinds of purchases, which is great.

And just to complete the picture, the real benefit buying used versus new can be determined by considering:

1. 10% MSRP relicensing fee
2. decommissioning, crating&shipping (completely up to us)
3. reinstall costs
4. loss of 1 year of service warranty
5. costs of reagents typically thrown in with new purchase
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Old 02-15-2016, 01:49 AM   #35
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This still does not involve me - may case was NOT a "re-sale". As you may notice from the thread they where some issues with the way in which the quotation and purchases where handled- there seems to be a third system involved.

Refusing to sell me reagents unless I had a registered machine is one example of where I think they have behaved in a less than fair way.

You must also remember that Illumina where asking $15000 PER SYSTEM silver service contact, plus Reinstall, Retification/Validation of $43500 PER SYSTEM.

They have now moved away from this pricing which is heartening.

Now it is over a year since I asked for a connected account in the UK, although Illumina has just told me I can now have access to my own machines database.
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Old 02-16-2016, 12:48 AM   #36
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What a surprise - Illumina,or at least SOME people in Illumina, have changed their minds again. I feel bad for a lot of people at Illumina because many people there really want to help and then they get shut down and told they don’t have the “authority”. Either that or they leave.

Illumina now tell me I cannot have the service history of my own machines (Mr.Richard Straw, Illumina UK) because they have not been used for a year and it is not relevant. Neither can I have access to the data produced on my own machines.

URGENT NOTICE:- If you have had samples sequenced at the Waite Campus and/or AGRF Waite campus, University of Adelaide on a Miseq(s) between 2012 to the end of 2014, then please private message me as your rights to your data may be affected!! I am upset at his situation but this was done without my knowledge or consent so contact me and we can see what we can sort out.
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Old 02-16-2016, 07:45 AM   #37
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I voted fair. That's not to say you have no reason to be frustrated, because I think you do, but I don't know that is the same as saying that Illumina's position is wholly unreasonable.

A) They're not refusing to transfer ownership to you, they're requiring that the registered owner in their system write a letter (presumably that would be harder to fake than an email) allowing Illumina to transfer the owner in the system. That's pretty typical, in my experience.

B) The crates for sequencer shipping are expensive. I worked in a lab that moved thirty miles down the road and the cost just to crate a couple HiSeqs was something like $10k. It's a little ridiculous, absolutely, but it's also not like slapping it in a cardboard box. Sometimes, if you save your shipping crates from your initial install (assuming you have room to do so), you can save yourself a sizable amount of money should you ever decide to move. I'm assuming you don't still have the crates from when you originally got your instruments.

C) Service contracts aren't exactly a "cost" of moving your instruments, more like a cost of doing business, unless your institution normally doesn't bother with them. I mean to say, you'd probably want the service contracts whether you were to leave the machines in Australia or have them in the UK. Between replacement reagents and parts and service visits, service contracts usually pay for themselves, assuming you're using the instrument on a regular basis.

D) Shipping charges are going to be entirely up to the freight company. As others have already noted, the cost is going to be quite high. Between the actual shipping costs and the fees you'll owe Illumina, it probably would have been cheaper to just buy some instruments closer to you in the UK.

E) The one thing that gave me pause, the one thing that made me almost click the "not sure" button was this:

- Reinstall / Recertification/Validation ( Including FSE & FAS and Consumables ) - $43500/- per system ( Consumables roughly around 10 K can be avoided if no validation is required by FAS)

The reason I didn't click "not sure" is because I'm not sure what you've requested them to do, specifically, or what your specific needs are. I don't know what your validation would look like to require $10K in consumables. Is that $10K for each instrument (presumably)? Are you running a clinical lab and having Illumina do all the validation/certification for you? The couple times I've dealt with new MiSeqs it was a single PhiX flow cell for a performance qualification and that was it, probably not more than $1000. As others have pointed out, you might want to negotiate this amount, if you can. I would expect the FSE and FAS visits to be included in your service contract, for example. If they're not, I'd ask why they're not. Since this line item represents the bulk of your relocation costs, I'd really drill down into what you're paying for and whether all of that is actually necessary for your relocation/reinstall.

Good luck!!!
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Old 02-16-2016, 10:44 PM   #38
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Quote:
Illumina now tell me I cannot have the service history of my own machines (Mr.Richard Straw, Illumina UK) because they have not been used for a year and it is not relevant.
So...did you do the shipping yourself and not pay the fees...?

Quote:
Neither can I have access to the data produced on my own machines.
You didn't have an external back up of your sequencing data...? Or are you referring to Basespace? You certainly have access to the files on the machine.
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Old 02-17-2016, 02:00 AM   #39
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So...did you do the shipping yourself and not pay the fees...?



You didn't have an external back up of your sequencing data...? Or are you referring to Basespace? You certainly have access to the files on the machine.
Apparently they are not saying I can't have access to my data (basespace of course) - they just had to make sure everything was ok first - that's good news! Why would some use a database that they cannot access!

Anyway, a big thank you to all those lovely people in Illumina who stand up for right - you know who you are !

Dan
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Old 02-17-2016, 03:48 AM   #40
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p.s. To be fair to Mr.Straw he said he had to check about my data, not that the answer was no - sorry about that!


PPS to the person who never seems to read the thread - the shipping charges answer is in the thread ! lol
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